Quote: Oldfred: Will Saddam have a fair trail?

So are you saying we should have left India in a state of mental and physical slavery for another 2000 years?

Or would you agree that India now has a chance of becoming one of the worlds leading democracies....thanks in no small measure to the British.

Fred

Quote:Ved: Will Saddam have a fair trail?

It gives me a chance to explain. But then if I do it here, I would straight pull the thread out of its post.

I come back with the answer in the Banter and Rant section, another day.

First of all let me say that the disbanding of the Empires, as it then existed, with more of a geographical dimension, rather than a spiritual one, was good for Britain. Otherwise, you may just contemplate on the gravity of the immigration problem that would literally be un-mitigate-able, due the fact that for the rich overseas citizen of the British Empire, it would just be a matter of boarding the plane; and also hiring a good solicitor.

Quote:Oldfred: Crikets thread.

And thanks to our EMPIRE that you decry, we brought education, health and democracy to a large part of the globe that otherwise would still be in the dark-ages

I am taking this quote of yours from Criket’s thread. It does contain a theme that needs a little explanation, and can be used as a prologue to my this writing. When taking the case of India, it would be wrong to say that the British Empire brought in the various knowledge, civilities, education, health, and even democracy (as can be defined in a variety of ways).

Actually, all these things (of contemporary levels) were available and in existence in India for a long time. And it could even be argued that some of the levels in certain of the items mentioned, India would have had it in a much superior quality than even contemporary Britain. And as such, it could be contented that British contribution was of negligible enduring value.

Just take the case of Yoga. It is considered to be a legacy of Indian heritage. And rightfully replicated by the English races in the various parts of the world. You see, this superior mental and physical training programme is Indian. Now, what is the problem?

And where does the British contribution come in?

The problem lies in understanding what is India. Let us just go back to the allegory of ‘Yoga’. How many Indians knew anything about Yoga, in the pre British or even British times? The answer is very, very little. For, in Indian social communication system, no knowledge is shared, to the various strata of society. And as you very well know, the society was heavily stratified. The superior levels of the society, which consisted of very few people, could literally take siege of an entire mass of humanity by the power that existed in the languages (Also, remember that the lower classes did exist at a very negative space in the social and language communication system, which was not only disturbing and irritating, but also contagious). (I will leave it at that).

Now let me take the case of Indians been put on leash of mental slavery by the ruling British. There are a number of dimensions to this. First of all, you may know that a lot of outsiders have overrun India, and ruled it. Yet, all of them ultimately became part and parcel of India, imbibing the language peculiarities, and conforming to the cultural and social behavioural codes. But the British alone, stood apart, literally like a un-dissolving entity, clinging on to their own language and social communication systems. Possibly, for the first time in those individual’s life, they saw how different and also, superior their social system was, in spite of all the negative points they might have contemplated.

Why did the British have such a ‘stupid’ level of superiority complex that they did not contemplate on the need to exist on a level of equality with the Indians? For, it was a very singular fact the superiority of many superior Indians was very much above most of the Englishmen who came to India.

The reason lies in the fact that there was no space known as equality in the Indian social communication system. Please note it: there is no level of enduring social equality in the Indian society.

Either you be above, or be below. All positions of equality did not have an enduring stability beyond the levels of formal relationships. Once, relationship turn informal, with a lot of people participating in the social communication, all relationship have to either turn superior or else, one has to necessarily go subordinate. Subordinate not just to one person, but to the evaluation mechanism of the entire social system. It is necessarily a state of lingering mental turbulence to persons with innate individuality, to be forced by unknown persons to place himself at a particular rank in relation to many others in the society.

Quote: Sledgehead: What one could lose!

If you want to sound like a grand English gentleman, don’t——————

Are English gentlemen really grand? You should see the feudal power that exudes from even a minor boss in feudal language nations, over the minor individuals in the society, and then that statement would need to be qualified. What really was misconstrued as grandness and racial bigotry of the British in India, could really have been an impulse for keeping away from the perceived negative aura that envelope persons, in the varying social levels. And also due to the forcible induction of this feeling of grandness, that the language system bestows on any person, who exists above the social strangulation.

This infection was not a unique British ailment, but is an affliction that affects almost all government officials in India.

I will continue on another day, for I think I am reaching the limits of a reader’s endurance in terms of word count.

How did the British, who came to India in very, very small numbers, get to acquire the whole place?

“They used cunning, guile, treachery, and wickedness, in wholesome quantities, to deceive the trusting natives, and befooled them to hand over their land, and other possessions”. This is the gist of modern school teaching, which more or less is authenticated by standard History textbooks.

Yet, these types of understandings are just the product of the juvenile imagination of armchair experts.

Consider a trader in this geographical area, in that time period. He wants to take his goods afar for trade. Every few kilometres, he has to pass through the forceful authority of various goons who represent various minor feudal structures. What works here is sheer prestige, and display of power (language is feudal). Persons who have it, and can display it, will be honoured and extended safe passage. Persons and groups who lack in this ability, can really be mistreated, harassed, manhandled, bullied, and even asked to part with a percentage of their possessions. But then, even these persons who are weak can manage, with deliberate, and pre-planned display of requisite obsequiousness, to tackle the menace. But, then the whole process would lack a sense of dignity.

Moreover, there was no safety of possessions, for those who were weak. Anyone, even the local, high caste families can literally encroach the possessions of the weak. But generally, nothing untoward happens as an everyday event, for everyone knows their own place in society, and no entity has any possession beyond the parameters of his or her social level.

In such a social climate, when the East India Company came, with pure profit motives, nothing wrong may be seen when they went on to have their own armed security, which literally became their Indian army, consisting of trained Indian soldiers. This along with providing security also lent the East India Company prestige. The importance of the latter acquirement can be understood, if one understands that in feudal language areas, there is no understanding of the theme of precedence or queues.

People give precedence to only persons of importance, not to the person who can otherwise rightfully claim precedence due to having arrived earlier. And another thing, there is no qualms in breaking a word given to a weak person. But to a socially acknowledged person, there is sheer delight in keeping the word, honouring a commitment, and being punctual to.

From this one may understand the quantitative gains the East India Company secured by displaying power, and pomp.

Quote: Oldfred: Will Saddam have a fair trail?

So are you saying we should have left India in a state of mental and physical slavery for another 2000 years?

Or would you agree that India now has a chance of becoming one of the worlds leading democracies....thanks in no small measure to the British.

Fred

Quote:Ved: Will Saddam have a fair trail?

It gives me a chance to explain. But then if I do it here, I would straight pull the thread out of its post. I come back with the answer in the Banter and Rant section, another day.

First of all let me say that the disbanding of the Empires, as it then existed, with more of a geographical dimension, rather than a spiritual one, was good for Britain. Otherwise, you may just contemplate on the gravity of the immigration problem that would literally be un-mitigate-able, due the fact that for the rich overseas citizen of the British Empire, it would just be a matter of boarding the plane; and also hiring a good solicitor.

Quote:Oldfred: Crikets thread.

And thanks to our EMPIRE that you decry, we brought education, health and democracy to a large part of the globe that otherwise would still be in the dark-ages

I am taking this quote of yours from Criket’s thread. It does contain a theme that needs a little explanation, and can be used as a prologue to my this writing. When taking the case of India, it would be wrong to say that the British Empire brought in the various knowledge, civilities, education, health, and even democracy (as can be defined in a variety of ways).

Actually, all these things (of contemporary levels) were available and in existence in India for a long time. And it could even be argued that some of the levels in certain of the items mentioned, India would have had it in a much superior quality than even contemporary Britain. And as such, it could be contented that British contribution was of negligible enduring value.

Just take the case of Yoga. It is considered to be a legacy of Indian heritage. And rightfully replicated by the English races in the various parts of the world. You see, this superior mental and physical training programme is Indian. Now, what is the problem?

And where does the British contribution come in?

The problem lies in understanding what is India. Let us just go back to the allegory of ‘Yoga’. How many Indians knew anything about Yoga, in the pre British or even British times? The answer is very, very little. For, in Indian social communication system, no knowledge is shared, to the various strata of society. And as you very well know, the society was heavily stratified. The superior levels of the society, which consisted of very few people, could literally take siege of an entire mass of humanity by the power that existed in the languages (Also, remember that the lower classes did exist at a very negative space in the social and language communication system, which was not only disturbing and irritating, but also contagious). (I will leave it at that).

Now let me take the case of Indians been put on leash of mental slavery by the ruling British. There are a number of dimensions to this. First of all, you may know that a lot of outsiders have overrun India, and ruled it. Yet, all of them ultimately became part and parcel of India, imbibing the language peculiarities, and conforming to the cultural and social behavioural codes. But the British alone, stood apart, literally like a un-dissolving entity, clinging on to their own language and social communication systems. Possibly, for the first time in those individual’s life, they saw how different and also, superior their social system was, in spite of all the negative points they might have contemplated.

Why did the British have such a ‘stupid’ level of superiority complex that they did not contemplate on the need to exist on a level of equality with the Indians? For, it was a very singular fact the superiority of many superior Indians was very much above most of the Englishmen who came to India. The reason lies in the fact that there was no space known as equality in the Indian social communication system. Please note it: there is no level of enduring social equality in the Indian society.

Either you be above, or be below. All positions of equality did not have an enduring stability beyond the levels of formal relationships. Once, relationship turn informal, with a lot of people participating in the social communication, all relationship have to either turn superior or else, one has to necessarily go subordinate. Subordinate not just to one person, but to the evaluation mechanism of the entire social system. It is necessarily a state of lingering mental turbulence to persons with innate individuality, to be forced by unknown persons to place himself at a particular rank in relation to many others in the society.

Quote: Sledgehead: What one could lose!

If you want to sound like a grand English gentleman, don’t——————

Are English gentlemen really grand? You should see the feudal power that exudes from even a minor boss in feudal language nations, over the minor individuals in the society, and then that statement would need to be qualified. What really was misconstrued as grandness and racial bigotry of the British in India, could really have been an impulse for keeping away from the perceived negative aura that envelope persons, in the varying social levels. And also due to the forcible induction of this feeling of grandness, that the language system bestows on any person, who exists above the social strangulation.

This infection was not a unique British ailment, but is an affliction that affects almost all government officials in India.

I will continue on another day, for I think I am reaching the limits of a reader’s endurance in terms of word count.

Posted August 18, 2004

I regret the length of this writing. The word count is roughly 760.

Quote: ved

with more of a geographical dimension, rather than a spiritual one

Actually there is an underlying idea that I wanted to convey through this sentence, hence the length of my first sentence. But it can wait.

Coming back to the Slavery imposed by the British. Let me say that one may feel that during the colonial times, all Indians were sort of servants to the British. This feeling needs real qualifying.

For one thing, only the persons who were as it was in the lower classes came up for menial work. It may safely be assumed that the treatment they received from their new masters were definitely much better than what they were traditionally used to; but when one views it from an English social framework one may be dismayed. But then, during those days, many persons who should have been in the suppressed classes studied English, and became the clerks and others of the British raj. It would be easy to see the social aloofness the British practised on them, until one discern their real social status among the Indians, as per their caste and other parameters.

The real superior classes did not in any manner go in for social inferiority to the British, but then other social forces sprang up that literally gave them the jitters. That was the relative social rising of the lower classes through newer jobs, and English knowledge that gave them the freedom to move out of the caste based professional barriers. In feudal language social atmospheres, if anyone moves forcibly to a superior level, it can cause real social disharmony. One cannot blame anyone in this regard. For, the mental trauma that this can cause is in the language itself.

One may notice that it was this superior class that really gave leadership to the freedom struggle. But again, it may be noticed that this was the class that was at home with the English social scenes. Many got education over there, also some of them had worked there. For them India was easy picking.

But they couldn’t bring in nor continue the mental mood changes that were ushered in by the English. For, at home, they thought, lived and spoke in feudal languages, the program of which was again the ancient feudal social framework.

Actually people really had a feeling that the British raj was soft. In pre-British India, if one evokes the royal anger, what usually happens is that he is either put in a metal frame and stuck up in a street corner for one or two months, literally to be eaten by the birds. Or, he is buried alive up to his neck and elephants are made to run amok over that area. Benign punishments could include cutting of the head etc.

Now, for the first time, a feeling came that if one demonstrates, all that happens is mass arrest, and after that a period of funny court proceedings, and then either letting off or jail for a limited period (rarely). In a nation (and time period), where the majority of youngsters had no opportunity to any level of individualism, the mental and physical freedom and energy these political demonstrations gave is unimaginable. It was a very easy thing to acquire a halo of heroism, when the danger involved was actually negligible. And the freedom lost in jails, was not much, when compared to the actual limited social freedom many of them enjoyed outside.

The soft image of the British raj can be understood from this following extreme example: You might be aware of the Jallianwala Massacre in Amritsar, in which General Dyre leading a contingent of Ghurkha troops ordered fire on an unarmed group of protesters. It was a very painful thing that no one could bear or understand.

The background to the incident was that there was rioting and civil disturbance in the town, and civil administration failed. Then the Military took over the administration. Military act was proclaimed. Yet, no one was bothered, not even the leaders, who should have known better.

Now, compare this with what happens now. If there is a police curfew or a military act in place, people literally shiver, and do not even linger out. Recently, in one state, during a demonstration suddenly it was announced that Police Act has been proclaimed. On hearing this announcement, people literally ran for their life, leaving the area empty.

Now, you can compare the image of British-Indian Military Act with that of the Indian Military Act, among the people.